Landmark Baptist

Wshank · by **Wshank** on 2009 Jul 13 Mon 4:38 pm

1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Who or what is "that which is perfect"?

by **remove_not** on 2009 Jul 14 Tue 5:13 am

Wshank wrote:1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Who or what is "that which is perfect"?

Maturity that ended childishness.

cbut1 · by **cbut1** on 2009 Jul 14 Tue 6:24 am

I say that which is perfect is Christ.

Wshank · by **Wshank** on 2009 Jul 14 Tue 12:04 pm

Maturity that ended childishness.

[/quote]

Sorry, but I can't seem to follow that? care to explain?

Wshank · by **Wshank** on 2009 Jul 14 Tue 12:10 pm

cbut1 wrote:I say that which is perfect is Christ.

Cbut1, If it be Christ, then it's reference is to His second coming and that would mean that the partial gifts mentioned in the previous verses would still be in effect. I realize that there are some, espacially the charismatics, who believe those gifts are still in effect.

I believe "that which is perfect" is the inspired Holy Scriptures in their completed form after the last verse of the last chapter had been penned through holy inspiration of God. In other words the Holy Bible. :wink:

by **Gary Allbritton** on 2009 Jul 14 Tue 12:15 pm

1 Corinthians 13:

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

'For we know in part' - this is referring to things we know by experience

'and we prophesy in part' - this is referring to things we know by faith

'But when that which is perfect is come, then...'
'but then face to face'
'but then shall I know'

These are all referring to the time of the "blessed hope" (Titus 2:13) after "the end of all things" (1 Peter 4:7) as the "fulness of times" (Ephesians 1:10) culminates into the "adoption" (Romans 8:23) when we will be "raised incorruptible" (1 Corinthians 15:52) on the "day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30).

What we can only see now as "an obscure reflection" ('through a glass, darkly'), we will be able to see then very clearly ('face to face' - "the real thing, not a reflection"), because [then] we will have "full maturity of knowledge and understanding" ('shall I know even as also I am known').

The words of verse 11 are illustrating the idea of "coming to full maturity", which (now, back to the overall context) will occur 'when that which is perfect is come'.

I do not believe "that which is perfect" is referring to "Christ Himself the person" specifically, but rather "the maturing of the times" into "those things" which He will "bring about" and "set up" when He comes (but because of, and brought about by, "Christ Himself the person" - for, He is still at the center of it.); i.e., the Rule and Reign of Christ - the introduction of the "perfect" condition/environment/society/etc. - the "times of refreshing" (Acts 3:19).

It is a 'who' and a 'what' - the 'who' is Christ, and the 'what' is His Wonderful Presence, our deliverance and redemption, etc.

'But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.'

In that day ("when the times have matured to their full age/end and Christ has come"), there will no more be just "partial understanding", but rather there will be "full and complete understanding"...

Mark Osgatharp · by **Mark Osgatharp** on 2009 Jul 14 Tue 1:28 pm

Brother Shank,

You said,

Wearthy Shank wrote:I believe "that which is perfect" is the inspired Holy Scriptures in their completed form after the last verse of the last chapter had been penned through holy inspiration of God. In other words the Holy Bible.

I agree. The Bible is the perfect source of prophecy and knowledge that replaced the partial gifts of prophecy and revelation. It is the means by which we can live in Christian maturity and have a face to face experience with God. I think Paul means the same thing in Ephesians chapter 4 when he said,

Paul wrote:Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

cbut1 · by **cbut1** on 2009 Jul 14 Tue 1:37 pm

Wshank wrote:
cbut1 wrote:I say that which is perfect is Christ.

Cbut1, If it be Christ, then it's reference is to His second coming and that would mean that the partial gifts mentioned in the previous verses would still be in effect. I realize that there are some, espacially the charismatics, who believe those gifts are still in effect.

I believe "that which is perfect" is the inspired Holy Scriptures in their completed form after the last verse of the last chapter had been penned through holy inspiration of God. In other words the Holy Bible.

Perhaps you are right but let us explore this a little.

Are we sure that it isn't referencing the first appearance? See under the OT they had glimpses of Christ in scripture, through the Law, Sacrifices, Manna, Mercy Seat etc etc etc but the fullness of understanding that those things were reffering to the Lord was lost on nearly all the people of Israel. Why? because they only knew in part they only understood these things from the perspective of the flesh that is why they kept asking for the Kingdom to be set up. They needed to view things from the Spiritual also as Christ showed them time and again with examples like calling a brother a fool is equatable to murder.

1Pe 1:10 Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 1:11 searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.

1Pe 1:12 To whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced unto you through them that preached the gospel unto you by the Holy Spirit sent forth from heaven; which things angel desire to look into.

Act 1:1 The former treatise I made, O Theophilus, concerning all that Jesus began both to do and to teach,

Act 1:2 until the day in which he was received up, after that he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Act 1:3 to whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God:

The ones here in Corinthians were relying on the physical manifestations of gifts as referenced in chapter 12. Pauls comments here in chapter 13 are a continued response to them as can be seen here.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

1Co 12:30 have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1Co 12:31 But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And moreover a most excellent way show I unto you.

He then launches into his without love crusade (I mean that complimentary). They were focused on the miracles and gifts along those lines that they didn't focus on the greatest gift Christ exampled; by His life, through His Word, by His Loving sacrifice.

When that which is perfect has come (Christ and all that He encompases) then that which we know in part will be done away with (reliance of the law, miracles, signs). We now have the all sufficient guide book to knowing our Lord and fullness of what we need to know about the Kingdom has been given through His Word and reminded to us by His Spirit.

Jonathan Melton · by **Jonathan Melton** on 2009 Jul 14 Tue 3:03 pm

James 1:21-25:

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whosoever looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."

"That which is perfect" is the completed Word of God. The three abiding gifts are faith, hope, and love.

Wshank · by **Wshank** on 2009 Jul 14 Tue 4:29 pm

cbut1 wrote:
Wshank wrote:
cbut1 wrote:I say that which is perfect is Christ.

Cbut1, If it be Christ, then it's reference is to His second coming and that would mean that the partial gifts mentioned in the previous verses would still be in effect. I realize that there are some, espacially the charismatics, who believe those gifts are still in effect.

I believe "that which is perfect" is the inspired Holy Scriptures in their completed form after the last verse of the last chapter had been penned through holy inspiration of God. In other words the Holy Bible.

Perhaps you are right but let us explore this a little.

Are we sure that it isn't referencing the first appearance?

When that which is perfect has come (Christ and all that He encompases) then that which we know in part will be done away with (reliance of the law, miracles, signs). We now have the all sufficient guide book to knowing our Lord and fullness of what we need to know about the Kingdom has been given through His Word and reminded to us by His Spirit.

I deleted a lot of that for space but want to point out that , in my humble opinion, it couldn't be the first appearence Of Christ because that event is already behind Paul in time and he speaks of a future event in his time.

Wshank · by **Wshank** on 2009 Jul 14 Tue 4:43 pm

Do you believe then that the gifts of prophacy, tongues, and knowledge that paul speaks of in v.8 are still in effect?
V. 10 says that when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away . If that which is perfect is Christ, then these gifts must still be in effect today and the Pentecostals have it right! [TIC. not meant to be sarcastic but to make a point.]

cbut1 · by **cbut1** on 2009 Jul 14 Tue 5:51 pm

No that was the point Christ came (Him, His Word, His Spirit) and as a result of that all other gifts were being done away with. Those gifts were still in effect in part during Pauls day but they were on their sunset (I believe they were completed when the Apostles passed on).

by **remove_not** on 2009 Jul 15 Wed 10:03 am

Wshank wrote:Maturity that ended childishness.

Sorry, but I can't seem to follow that? care to explain?

I was intentionally being vague, just for the fun of it. I believe it refers to the cannon of Scripture.

Bro Jerry

by **Gary Allbritton** on 2009 Jul 15 Wed 11:02 am

Wshank wrote:Do you believe then that the gifts of prophacy, tongues, and knowledge that paul speaks of in v.8 are still in effect?
V. 10 says that when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away . If that which is perfect is Christ, then these gifts must still be in effect today and the Pentecostals have it right! [TIC. not meant to be sarcastic but to make a point.]

To properly answer your question is going to take a good deal of time and effort (which I am more than happy to make).

If you are asking as to whether I believe the "gifts" are still in existence today - and being "exercised" or "utilized" by some - then the simple answer would be 'No'.

For further explanation, please look for it in the 'What I Believe' section of my 'Grasp Truth' web site. {"Coming soon to a browser near you..." :grin:

}

("Sorry about having to make you wait.")

BTW - What does 'TIC' mean? --- "Tongue In Cheek"? :smile:

Wshank · by **Wshank** on 2009 Jul 15 Wed 5:05 pm

Gary Allbritton wrote:
Wshank wrote:Do you believe then that the gifts of prophacy, tongues, and knowledge that paul speaks of in v.8 are still in effect?
V. 10 says that when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away . If that which is perfect is Christ, then these gifts must still be in effect today and the Pentecostals have it right! [TIC. not meant to be sarcastic but to make a point.]

To properly answer your question is going to take a good deal of time and effort (which I am more than happy to make).

If you are asking as to whether I believe the "gifts" are still in existence today - and being "exercised" or "utilized" by some - then the simple answer would be 'No'.

For further explanation, please look for it in the 'What I Believe' section of my 'Grasp Truth' web site. {"Coming soon to a browser near you..." }

("Sorry about having to make you wait.")

BTW - What does 'TIC' mean? --- "Tongue In Cheek"?

Yep. TIC is Tongue-in-cheek. Sometimes I forget to mark some of my statements either with emoticons or TIC, etc. and after I post, it sounds rather mean-spirited.
And I'm in no hurry... I'm on dial-up internet service

W. A. Dillard · by **W. A. Dillard** on 2009 Jul 15 Wed 6:24 pm

Hey Wshank:

We've missed you on the forum for some time. It is good to see you are posting again. I agree that that which is perfect is come is nothing else than the completed word of God by which temporal gifts under discussion were done away and the possibility of achieving maturity in the Word became available to all who desired it.

Wshank · by **Wshank** on 2009 Jul 16 Thu 5:36 am

W. A. Dillard wrote:Hey Wshank:

We've missed you on the forum for some time. It is good to see you are posting again. I agree that that which is perfect is come is nothing else than the completed word of God by which temporal gifts under discussion were done away and the possibility of achieving maturity in the Word became available to all who desired it.

Bro. Dillard,
I passed thru friquently but usually didn't stop to comment. Sometimes I just like to read other people's opinions.

by **Gary Allbritton** on 2009 Aug 15 Sat 1:45 pm

Wshank wrote:
Gary Allbritton wrote:To properly answer your question is going to take a good deal of time and effort (which I am more than happy to make).

For further explanation, please look for it in the 'What I Believe' section of my 'Grasp Truth' web site. {"Coming soon to a browser near you..." }

("Sorry about having to make you wait.")

And I'm in no hurry... I'm on dial-up internet service

Funny...

(I have not forgotten. I have just been too busy with other things...)

Landmark Baptist

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