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A Historians critique of Baptist History

The contributors of the distinctives of Baptist faith and practice. Please see pink rules box.
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The title of this forum has somewhat of a dual meaning - with regard to a 'general' versus 'specific' perspective. Generally speaking, History and Tradition have been the contributors of the distinctives of Baptist faith and practice. The topics in this forum should be about those specific things that have been contributors of the distinctives of Baptist faith and practice - based on History and Tradition. In other words, History and Tradition is the "category" and contributors of the distinctives of Baptist faith and practice is the "theme"... If the nature of the topic does not match this "category" and "theme", then it should not be placed in this forum.

A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby cbut1 on 2009 Aug 11 Tue 6:45 pm

Hello all

I have a friend who is a Historian of another religious form I will refrain from offering his name so that the content of what he writes will be the forfront of any discussion that his conclusions generate. I intend to write a rebuttle to his conclusions but before I do I wanted to give you all the opportunity to critique his critique. It is a lengthy post so I am not sure which is the best way to post it.

I was given permission by him to use his name for he stands by his work but prudence tells me to deal with the subject matter.


The copy he sent me is at the bottom of the post as an attachment.

WICHITA STATE UNIVERSITY

ALBIGENSIAN CATHARS:
A BROKEN LINK IN THE CHAIN OF BAPTIST SUCCESSIONISM

HISTORY 300

BY *************

Dec. 8th , 2008



ABLIGNESIAN CATHARS:
A BROKEN LINK IN THE CHAIN OF BAPTIST SUCCESSIONISM


Modern followers of the Baptist religion in the United States have asserted for over a century that their religion was not born out of the Reformation, but rather has existed since apostolic times. It is further asserted that although the name “Baptist” is used in modern times, they have been known by other names throughout history; Donatists, Paulicans, Bogamils, Cathars, Albigensians, Waldenese, etc. It is through these names that they have asserted that they are not part of the religious separation of the Reformation, but rather a parallel religion that rivals Roman Catholicism in tracing its Christian belief back to apostolic times. Baptists assert a constant “successionism.”

Successionism is part of the Baptist ecclesiology known as “Landmarkism”. A doctrinaire ecclesiology started in the 1850’s by J.R. Graves. Landmark successionism was reinforced when Graves published A Concise History of Baptists written by G.H. Orchard in 1855. This history gave way to more historical pamphlets and books written by other Landmarkers, most notable J.M. Carrol’s pamphlet, The Trail of Blood which is still in circulation today. One of the common factors in this successionism has been the assertion that the 11th century heretics, the Albigensians, were in fact proto-Baptists. That the reason for the inquisition and coinciding crusade against them in southern France was due to the fact that they were proto-Baptists and the Roman Catholic Church, being corrupted, attempted to eliminate them in order to suppress what Baptists believe to be the correct practice of Christianity.

Were the Albigensians a link in the chain of successionism? To answer this we must look at the practices and doctrine of the Baptists as defined by the proponents of Landmarkism and compare them with the doctrine and practices of the Albigensians.

I
“Landmarkism” is an ecclesiology that supports the major premise of the sole validity of the Baptist churches. Through this ecclesiology, Landmarkers assert that they are not a product of the Reformation, but rather a parallel religion that did not derive from Roman Catholicism as other Protestant religions did. The name is derived from the title J.R. Graves gave to an essay, in 1855, of J.M. Pendleton’s entitled An Old Landmark Reset.

J.R. Graves is considered the most prominent advocate of the Landmark movement. A publisher in Memphis, Tennessee, Graves used his position and publications to attempt to reform the Baptist churches and re-establish the practice of Baptists refusing to recognize non-Baptist ministers. Along with A.C. Dayton and J.M. Pendelton, Graves formed what Baptists have considered the “The Great Triumvirate” of the Baptist churches.

The basic tenants of the Landmark movement mirror most modern Protestant movements. First is the “Believers Baptism,” in sharp contrast to “Infant Baptism” practiced by Roman Catholicism. Believers Baptism contends that only those who are capable of making a conscious choice to follow “Christ’s teachings” are truly able to either accept or decline baptism. Further, Landmarkers asserted that there were only two basic beliefs regarding baptism: (1) baptism is for the remission of sins, and (2) baptism is an expression of obedience towards salvation, death, burial and resurrection. Graves asserted that no other religious organization practiced baptism by “Immersion”, and therefore those religious organizations did not perform valid baptisms.

The Second tenant is “Trinitarianism”, the religious doctrine asserting the divinity of Christ established at the Council of Nicea in523 A.D. This doctrine created at an ecumenical council, to combat the Arian Heresy, is the basis of most Christian doctrine. It asserts that Christ was fully man and fully divine. The council declared that although Christ was born man, that being of God also made him fully divine. That Christ was of the same essence as God. That he shared the same substance as God and the Holy Spirit. This was defined as Homoousian to patri (The same substance as the father).

Third of Landmark Baptists is the belief in the Divine inspiration and the Canons of the Bible. This includes the New Testament as well as the Old Testament. Although this is similar to Roman Catholicism, it differs in the number of Books in the Old Testament that are considered “Divinely Inspired”. The Baptists accept the Protestant version based upon the King James Bible that claims that certain books of the Old Testament are apocrypha.

The final key belief is that each church was egalitarian. Each church from apostolic time is totally independent, and that no hierarchy exists. The head of the church was Christ himself, and that there was no need for a human patriarch.

It was this fourth belief was the basis of the successionism argument: “To deny the continuous existence of Christ’s church (kingdom) is, implicitly, to deny Christ, and to trust Christ as a trustworthy savior is, implicitly, to believe in the continuous existence of His Church.” This tenant is the belief that in order for the church to be a true Christian church, it must have historical succession dating back to apostolic times. To establish the validity of the assertion two methods were used: (1) proof by definition, and (2) proof by history.

Proof by definition involved looking at various historical religious communities and drawing conclusions based upon practices and doctrines of those communities and how they mirrored the modern Baptist ecclesiology. As Graves stated in his polemic writing Old Landmarksim:

Nor do we admit the claim of the “Liberals” upon us, to prove the continuous existence of the church, of which we are a member, or which baptized us, in order to prove our doctrine of church succession….When the Infidel can prove, by incontestable [sic] historical facts, that his kingdom has been broken and removed one year, one day, or ore hour from the earth, then we surrender our Bible with our position.


In 1855, Graves published A Concise History of Baptists written by G.H. Orchard. This text was written by Orchard to support a claim he made in 1823, “that from the days of John the Baptist, until now…. our denomination had had an existence.”

Unable to find any historical text that would support his thesis, Orchard “began to read and make ;extracts from authors on the subject of my investigation’ namely,’ the views of the different parties’ or denominations. After some years of reading, ‘ I resolved’ he said, ‘ on throwing my materials into chronological order, to exhibit the feature of a connected history’” Graves took this step further by asserting that any religious group persecuted since the “great apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church” would have been proto-Baptists and therefore links in the chain of successionism. As Graves claimed, “That not in one country alone, but in many kingdoms, successions of Baptist communities have come down to us from the apostles, all striped and scarred and blood covered.” This was summarized as the term “Trail of Blood”. The Baptists have been called by various names throughout the ages, and that these groups were proto-Baptists. Such “nicknames” include: Cathari, Novatianists, Donatists, Paulicians, Acephali, Paterines, Petrobrusians, Henicians, Arnoldists, Albigenses, Waldenses, Lollards, Anabaptists, and Mennonites.

The term “Trail of Blood” coined by Graves would become the title of a pamphlet ( and later text) written by J.M. Carroll, a Baptist minister from Texas, in 1931. Carroll’s works would become far more popular than Graves. Carroll’s work can be summarized as an extension and scholarly modification to the successionism issue. The basis of the text is Carroll’s lectures given on the issue of Baptist successionism and he even provides illustrations in the form of a “graph” that follows “The Trail of Blood”. However, it does not deviate from the standard Landmark successionism view. It claims the same chain of successionism that Graves and Orchard established and is probably the best known work of Baptist successionism.

Carroll follows the methodology of Graves and Orchard by using quotations from non-Baptist authors. This could be attributed to Graves’ reasoning on non-Baptist writers:

[They] certainly could have no objects, save fealty to the truth of history, to pen a line favorable to Baptists, and no motive but scholarly honesty, to concede to Baptists a church existence far anterior to their own, and that of the Catholic.
It would be conceded by any judge or jury that my case was an incontestable one, should I sustain it, beyond a doubt, by the witnesses of my opponent!”


However, many of the quotes that Graves and Carroll used are taken out of context. In addition, Carroll cited in his 1931 work a quotation of Cardinal Hosius Stansilaus from a supposed work by the Cardinal “Apud Omnia” in which the Cardinal allegedly wrote that the Baptists had been in existence for at least 500 years before the Council of Trent. The Cardinal never created such a work, and the quote cannot be found in any of his published works.

It is through this methodology that Orchard, Graves, and Carroll started declaring the Albigensian to be proto-Baptists. The Albigensians were persecuted by the Catholic Church and therefore, Graves concluded, they became declared heretics for practicing a pure form of Christianity that the Catholic Church had forsaken when it became corrupted.

II
The Albigensians were Cathars who lived in the region of modern day southern France. The Cathari were given different names depending on the region in which they resided. In northern Europe they were called, “Publicans.” In Italy they were called “Patarines.” In some areas they were called “Bulgars” due to their connection with Balkan sects. The Albigensians were named due to an incident where some of the Cathari leadership accepted an invitation to debate the local Catholic clergy in Lombard, near the town of Albi in Languedoc. However, the Albigensians never referred to themselves by the name given to them by their detractors, but rather referred to themselves as the “Good Christians” and referred to followers as “Good Men”.

At first the Albigensians were considered a minor heresy that was not much of a threat to the established religious authority of the Roman Catholicism. However, the movement grew to include members of the nobility of Languedoc who afforded protection to the Albigensians as well as patronage that provided for growth of the movement. In response the Catholic Church instituted an inquisition and later a crusade to eliminate this religious movement and re-establish Catholic supremacy in the area.

The Albigensians were Dualists. In the beginning they were classified as “mitigated dualist.” These mitigated dualists believed in one God, but that God had two sons, Christ and Lucifer. After Lucifer’s fall, he went on to create the Earth out of the Chaos and everything upon it. The material was sole creation of “evil”. In addition, Lucifer then created Adam and Eve. They were given life with the aid of an angel sent by God. After the creation, Lucifer thrust the spirit of the Angel into the body of Adam.

After contact with Bogamils, a dualist sect from the Balkans, the Albigensians were almost totally converted to “absolute dualism”. The ecclesiology of this movement claimed that Lucifer was not God’s son, but rather a parallel God whose domain was “evil”. The Old Testament was cited as examples of an evil God at work. Along with mitigated Dualists, the Albigensians clearly rejected the Old Testament and also asserted that Judaism was a creation of the evil God.
In a debate held in 1165, the Bishop of Albi, along with Church representative and lay authorities, debated with a spokesman of the Albigensian sect at Lombars.:

In the first instance, the bishop of Lodeve, commanded thereto by the bishop of Albi and his assessors, asked those who chose to be called Good Men whether they accepted the law in Moses, the Prophets, the Psalms, the Old Testament and the doctors of the New Testament. Before the whole assemblage they replied that they did not accept the law of Moses, nor the prophets, nor the Psalms, nor the Old Testament, but only the Gospels, the Epistles of Paul, the seven canonical Epistles, the Acts of the Apostles, and the apocalypse.

The absolute dualists asserted that angelic beings had triple constitution: body soul and spirit. After “the Fall” of Lucifer, some of those beings who were cast out with Lucifer had their souls imprisoned in corporal bodies of mankind. In response, the good God sent an angelic being named Christ down to Earth to redeem the lost beings. Christ never assumed human form, due to the fact that all things material were inherently evil, but rather cast an illusion to human eyes. Absolute dualists also asserted that his mother, Mary, was also an angelic being who preceded him into the material world, and she also never assumed human form.

This absolute dualist belief was upheld by mitigated dualists, however, there were a few that admitted that Mary and Christ had assumed human form, but taught that they abandoned it on ascension to heaven.

The Abligensians were not an egalitarian society. There were “Good Christians”, those who had receive the ritualistic baptism known as the consolamentum, and the non-baptized followers known as the “Good Men”. The Catholics referred to the two classes as the “Perfecti” and the “Believers”.

The Perfecti were the leaders of the movement. Only they were allowed to preach and interpret scripture. Only they were allowed to say “the Lord’s Prayer”. They dressed in absolute black and proselytized in hopes of gaining new converts. They were supported by the believers which enabled them to lead quasi-ascetic lives. They formed the Hierarchy of the movement which mirrored Catholicism in hierarchal structure with Bishops established by a special repetition of the consolamentum.

The believers made up the majority of the movements population, believing that salvation was only achievable through the consolamentum. Most believers chose to wait until death to receive the consolamentum. The nobility of Languedoc who protected the Albigensians were believers. No charges brought before the Inquisition were able to prove otherwise.

The consolamentum was a baptism ceremony that elevated a Believer to the status of Perfecti. The Albigensians believed that water being of the material world poisoned the ceremony and made it invalid. Instead, the consolamentum was a sacramental ceremony using the “imposition of hands”.

In the Albigensian baptismal ceremony, the candidate would be called into the middle of a large gathering of Albigensians in which the ranking Perfecti would utter long prayers, with the Lord ’s prayer being pronounced several times. The Perfecti would instruct the candidate on the tenants and customs he had to observe. The Perfecti then asked the Candidate if he was willing to accept this. Once the candidate answered affirmatively, the gathering would close upon the candidate each putting their right hand on the believer shoulders while the Perfecti would hold the Gospel above his head. After repeating the Lord’s prayer seven times, (which only the Perfecti were allowed to do) the Perfecti would then read from the Gospel of John.

With this, the candidate was now considered one of the “Good Christians”. Most often this was done on the deathbed, but many chose to become Good Christians and proselytize. The Albigensians considered those who had undergone the consolamentum to be without sin and able then to shed their mortal bodies upon death so that the angelic soul could go to heaven.

Upon receiving the consolamentum, the Good Christian would then dress in black robes to be easily identified. However, following the establishment of the Inquisition and the Crusade, the Perfecti would discard this garb and would only be identified by a black thread worn next to the clothing.

The ascetic lifestyle of the Albigensians was also rigorous. They were prohibited from eating meat, cheese, eggs and milk. Some have asserted that this is in connection with a belief in metempsychosis that was practiced by some Cathar sects. This assertion comes mostly from their opponents, and there is currently not enough evidence to confirm that this was a standard practice or belief among the Albigensians. Confirmed dietary restrictions among the Albigensians, however, include fasting on bread and water three days out of every week.

Physical contact between the sexes was also heavily regulated. Physical touching was avoided as much as possible. It is even asserted that they prohibited marriage and practiced homosexuality. However, a Franciscan monk of the 13th century, James Capelli, called such charges outlandish and false.

For men and women observing the vow and way of life of this sect are in no way soiled by the corruption of debauchery…Actually, the rumor of the fornication which is said to prevail among them is most false…They are wrongfully wounded in popular rumor by many malicious charges of blasphemy from those who say they commit many shameful and horrid acts of which they are innocent.

Although the limitation of physical contact between the sexes was practiced, even Capelli stated that they did this as an act of asceticism and were “most chaste of body”.

III
On June 24th, 1851, at the Cotton Grove convention, J.R. Graves asked the question:
“Can Baptists, consistently with their principles or the Scriptures, recognize, those societies not organized according to the pattern of the Jerusalem Church, but possessing different governments, different officers, a different class of members, different ordinances, doctrines and practices, as churches of Christ?”

The answer was unanimously answered in the negative. It is with three of the above standards that we can approach question of Albigensians being a link in the chain of successionism: (1) class of members, (2) doctrines, and (3) practices.

In the Landmark Baptist tradition, there is an enduring sense of egalitarianism. All members are equal. All can interpret Scripture. All can recite and lead various Psalms and the Lord’s Prayer. Baptism does not endow anyone with a special position in relationship to God.

The Albigensians, however, were very set in a two caste system. Only the Perfecti could Interpret Scripture. Only Perfecti could recite the Lord’s Prayer correctly. Those who had received the consolamentum would find salvation and be able to communicate with God. The Believers were not allowed to Interpret Scripture. They were not allowed to lead anyone in the Lord’s Prayer because the belief was that since they were tainted with the material evil, God would not hear them.
By this comparison one can conclude that Landmark Baptists and Albigensians were in opposition in the area of “class of members”. One might even argue that the Albigensians were closer to Catholicism with its established Priesthood, than with the Baptists. The Albigensians even had bishoprics whereas there is no such establishment in the Baptist religion.

The Trinitarian beliefs of the Landmark Baptist are well documented. They believe that there is only on God, and that He created the Heavens and the Earth. They believe that He alone created Adam in his own image and then created Eve from his rib. They believe that Jesus Christ was born of Mary, became man, was crucified, and rose on the third day for the redemption of mans sin. That it was a second redemption given to man, the first being the Great Deluge. They believe that Baptism and Sola Gratia (Grace Alone) are all that is needed for Salvation. Baptists believe in Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) and that the Old Testament and the New Testament were divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The Albigensians had Dualistic beliefs. Albigensians believed that the world was created by an evil God or angel, that Adam and Eve were created by the evil God and all that was material was in essence evil. The majority of Albigensians believe that Christ did not assume the material form of a man, but rather it was an illusion, that his mother was also not man, but rather another angelic being. That Christ did not share the same substance as the good God. Albigensians believed that the Old Testament and also the Jews were products of the evil God.

In this comparison there is little doubt that the Albigensians were in no way similar to the Landmark Baptists. Dualism and Trinitarianism drastically contrast each other. Whereas Dualism asserts two separate and omnipotent entities, Trinitarianism asserts three entities in one. The doctrines are incompatible.

In the matter of baptism, Baptists believe that the only proper way to baptize someone is through “Immersion”. But, even that is not sufficient. As Graves held about a candidate’s baptism, “Having established the fact that the subject does not profess any private faith he may entertain, but always the faith of the denomination baptizing him.” In addition, Graves asserts that Baptism is in no essential to salvation; rather, “Salvation is essential to baptism.”

The Albigensians clearly believed that baptism was necessary for Salvation. That without the baptism a person was still bound to the evil of the material world and the material body. In addition, Albigensians believed that baptism that involved water would poison the baptism due to the fact that water was a substance of the material world and therefore invalidate the process due to its creation by evil. The only valid baptism was by “the laying of hands”.

As is clearly shown, neither would have recognized the others method of baptism. Not only were the practices different, but the purpose was also different. The Albigensian ceremony removed all previous sin from that person and thus was a necessary step in attaining salvation. The Baptists believe that baptism was in no way essential for salvation, but rather “salvation is essential to baptism.” In addition, the difference in mode would make the Landmarkers even more apt to proclaim the Albigensian ceremony invalid. Graves stated , “The unwarranted substitution of sprinkling for baptism itself invalidates the claim of Pedobaptist Societies to be considered churches of Christ.” This comparison alone is probably the most significant factor that disputes the entire successionism argument. The practices do not allow for the Landmarkers to recognize the practices of the Albigensians as valid nor done with “the right understanding”.
IV
As with all societies in history, the vanquished are unable to correct any assumptions made about them. However, with studious pursuit and diligence, it is possible for later generations to look at a society and determine aspects of the culture. Although the argument of the successionism faction inclusion of Albigensians can be attributed to a zealous, yet uninformed desire, one must understand that the information now available was unknown at the time of the formation of the ideology. To his credit, Graves published what was considered at the time “modern historical methodology.” However, the resources used came from what are now considered biased and incomplete research in modern historical methodology.

Using Graves own methodology of comparison, the assertion of Albigensian Cathars being proto-Baptists is proven false. From the basic doctrine of Dualism to the elaborate baptism ceremony, it is fairly evident that Landmarkers should not consider the Albigensians as a link in the chain of Baptist successionism. The Albigensians do not fit into the standard set by the Landmarkers. As to why they were included at all is a matter outside the scope of this research.

What can be concluded from the research presented is that the Albigensians were not proto-Baptists. Although both sects believe in “Believers Baptism”, the basics of class of members, doctrine, and practices are clearly separate. Therefore, the inclusion of Albigensians as proto-Baptists is incorrect using the methodology presented by Graves. The Albigensians are a broken link in the chain of Baptist successionism.
Albigensian.doc
Attachment contains Bibliography and cite sources.
(63 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
Change a mans mind against his will, he is of the same mind still. ----

Benjamin Franklin.
cbut1
 
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Re: A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby Rlvaughn on 2009 Aug 12 Wed 8:35 am

I printed this out to hopefully read later. Thanks for posting it.
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Re: A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby richhamlin on 2009 Aug 14 Fri 4:30 am

I'm not sure who your historian friend is, but if he wants to see a detailed refutation of Baptist Successionism he should read the book by McGoldrick:

http://www.amazon.com/Baptist-Successio ... 0810836815

He considers every group mentioned in the Trail of Blood.

Jesus promised the perpetuity of His church, and I personally don't believe we need a successionist mindset in order to believe that promise has been fulfilled.

Rich
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Re: A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby Mark Osgatharp on 2009 Aug 14 Fri 6:31 am

Brother Hamlin,

You said,

Richard Hamlin wrote:I'm not sure who your historian friend is, but if he wants to see a detailed refutation of Baptist Successionism he should read the book by McGoldrick:

http://www.amazon.com/Baptist-Successio ... 0810836815

He considers every group mentioned in the Trail of Blood.

Jesus promised the perpetuity of His church, and I personally don't believe we need a successionist mindset in order to believe that promise has been fulfilled.


How can you have perpetuity without succession? Not that I think that all the groups that the "Trail of Blood" or any other armchair Baptist historian has attempted to garner under the Baptist umbrella were actually Baptists. But if you say you believe in perpetuity I don't see how you can fail to have a "successionist mindset." Perhaps you could enlighten us.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas
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Re: A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby cbut1 on 2009 Aug 14 Fri 10:34 am

richhamlin wrote:I'm not sure who your historian friend is, but if he wants to see a detailed refutation of Baptist Successionism he should read the book by McGoldrick:

http://www.amazon.com/Baptist-Successio ... 0810836815

He considers every group mentioned in the Trail of Blood.

Jesus promised the perpetuity of His church, and I personally don't believe we need a successionist mindset in order to believe that promise has been fulfilled.

Rich



My friend is using Landmark Baptist Distinctives to go through Baptist history in his process to earning his Masters degree. He and I have had many discussions over the last 3 yrs and have come to many agreeable conclusions concerning the limited info available. Each time we discuss these things he caveats to that fact as well as most info we do have is from the opponants of the various groups. He does not need a rufutation of the succesionist mindset from someone else he is doing the work himself to help him earn his degree.

Each time him and I have had these discusions so far I have been able to counterpoint his points but my resources are very limited whereas his is very abundant.
Change a mans mind against his will, he is of the same mind still. ----

Benjamin Franklin.
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Re: A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby Rlvaughn on 2009 Aug 14 Fri 2:46 pm

Brother Butler, I read through Albigensian Cathars: a Broken Link in the Chain of Baptist Successionism the other night. I made some notes as I went, but unfortunately I left them in my briefcase and don't have them with me as I type this. First, I want to make a criticism that I hope does not come on too strong. I recommend that anyone writing in the field of history toward obtaining a Master's Degree do a better job of editing in order to remove typographical and grammatical errors. It will help him be taken more seriously. I note that he is not writing an e-mail, a blog post, or a discussion forum post, where some of this might be more excusable. Nevertheless, all that said, whether one can type or write well does not invalidate the truth of what one writes.

Second, I am not that up on Baptist history (or so-called Baptist history) further back than early American Baptist history. So I have not studied that much about the Albigensians, am not well-versed on them, and don't really have my own opinion on them.

Third, to the paper by your friend. I notice he mentions Graves, Orchard, and J. M. Carroll a lot. I did not notice that he ever mentioned John T. Christian. I think anyone who is serious about refuting Baptist Successionism in the realm of history must take note of Christian. I don't know much about Orchard. Graves was a polemicist, and Carroll's Trail of Blood is a popular rather than a scholarly work. Christian was a Baptist educator, and has put forth, in my opinion, the most scholarly presentation of Baptist Successionism. Why many ignore him and run to Carroll, I cannot understand. The Albigenses are mainly discussed in his fifth chapter of volume I -- A History of the Baptists.
http://www.reformedreader.org/history/christian/ahob1/ahob.htm
In contrast to your friend's paper, Christian claims that the Albigenses immersed. This is not to say that Christian is right and your friend is wrong, but rather to encourage him to take on the "best" Baptist history available from a successionist viewpoint.

Just as a matter of curiosity, one of the things that he uses to argue against the Albigenses being Baptist is their dualism. I don't know whether that is an accurate presentation or not -- Christian says the Roman Catholics "sought diligently for excuses to persecute." But, while I would consider dualism unsound, it is nevertheless true that some Baptists have been dualists. Daniel Parker's theology was so. While one can argue that Parker was an unsound Baptist, he was a Baptist nevertheless and his church the first Baptist church in Texas. And some Baptist writers in the 1800s were accused of dualism or, more accurately, anti-trinitarianism (Wilson Thompson and Samuel Trott for two, I think) mostly because they were creative in their language and didn't tow the line in using "traditional" trinitarian language.

Finally, whether Albigenses are in Baptist Succession or not, it is unlikely that most modern Landmarkers would fellowship with them based on what we know. I have seen time and again folks boldly proclaim this type church or that type church is not scriptural, to only stick their collective heads in the sand when challenged with such a church in their own ancestry. (Fortunately, I suppose, we don't know whether the Albigenses are in our ancestry.)

Hope this makes sense.
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Re: A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby Rick Howard on 2009 Aug 14 Fri 4:49 pm

Bro. Vaughn,
I too have greatly appreciated John T. Christian's history. I have read it many times with great delight and somber reflection. It is obvious he conducted diligent and thorough research, with ample documentation.
About 25 years ago, I went through his history and took excerpts that I thought were especially pertinent and powerful and put them together under general headings, such as "What A Church Is" and "Perpetuity and Succession" and "Baptism" etc. I then plugged the excerpts into the general headings and came up with 16 typed pages as a handout.
I then mailed out copies to pastors of about 25 Protestant churches in the area of S. Calif. I lived and was pastor and got only one response, which simply stated, "So what?"

I have scanned this handout and have it saved as a pdf file if anyone would like to use it as your own handout or as simply a good summary of his main points.

I also greatly appreciate his small work on "Did They Dip?" as a wonderful refutation of those who claim immersion did not start in England until 1641, including the famous charge by Dr. Whitsitt that the Anabaptists of England did not incorporate immersion until 1641.

John T. Christian has probably done more to give us a solid foundation for our history than any historian.

Of course, Matthew 16:18 and 28:20 aren't too shabby as scripture supports of the main principle of perpetuity.
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Re: A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby SWaters on 2009 Aug 15 Sat 7:29 am

Rick-
I remember well when you made that handout; I just mentioned that response that you received in a message the other day. In fact, if I recall correctly, the response was from a Southern Baptist Church pastor and was something like "this is all very interesting, but who cares?"

Baptist history has always fascinated me as it is only true baptists that believe in this perpetuity. This belief is a must otherwise the Lord was a liar when He said in:
Matthew 16:18 “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
And in
Matthew 28:20 “… I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

In my opinion the most dangerous doctrines (heresies) to come out of the Lord’s Churches was the “universal visible church theory” in around the 3rd century, which of course gave birth to the Roman and the Greek Catholic Church; Then, of course the “universal invisible church theory” which came out of the Roman Catholic Church in around 13th century.

This concept is so simple to understand it amazes me how modern Christianity gives no thought as to how important of a doctrine this is. Anyway, I know I’m preaching to the choir on this one…

I would like a copy of the handout that you made when you get a chance.
Steve
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Re: A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby cbut1 on 2009 Aug 15 Sat 1:40 pm

Bro Vaughn

I have read all the traditional histories concerning our Baptist heritage and the facts are to sparce and broken up to make a dot by dot line as Carrol tries. I have given JT Christian the go over on numerous occasions and it is truely a dependable work but even it has holes in it. The reason there are holes is because much information was destroyed by the enemies of our ancestry (spiritual ancestry) and then they try to fill in the blanks with what they think it is we have taught through the generations. They fill it in with terms like dualist, gnosticism, and any other term that would invoke anethema in the mind of the reader.

I think it is foolish to stand up and say this one was part of our line or that one was part of our line because there just isn't enough info to PROVE beyond doubt the claims. I think the best and most direct link and connection for us as Baptist to use is that of the Olchon Valley in Wales. Claudia and Pudens are directly spoken of in Gods Word and their homeland (Claudias) was in Wales where her father Caracticus was King. The region has a tremendous amount of history that does speak more soundly of Baptist distinctives through the ages and with many peoples migrating here to America from that region gives us a solid footing in that is nearly impossible to contest by our detractors.

Of coarse Christ Himself is our best evidence of the Perpetuity but if our detractors actually believed Christ and what He taught then they would be Baptist and not the enemies of Baptist. :)
Change a mans mind against his will, he is of the same mind still. ----

Benjamin Franklin.
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Re: A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby richhamlin on 2009 Aug 17 Mon 3:05 am

Bro. Osgatharp,

I refrain from a successionist mindset as J.R. Graves did:

Nor have I, or any other Landmarker known to me, ever advocated the succession of any church or churches; but my position is that Christ, in the very “days of John the Baptist,” did establish a visible kingdom on earth, and that this kingdom has never yet been “broken in pieces,” nor given to another class of subjects—has never for a day “been moved,” nor ceased from the earth, and never will until Christ returns personally to reign over it; (J. R. Graves, Old Landmarkism: What is it? p. 79)

“Whatever is found in the New Testament is as worthy as if you traced it there. It is only a doubtful practice, whose thread must be traced thus carefully through the labyrinth of history, with painful uncertainly, lest you reach its end, while yet a century or two from Christ. Why, sir, if between us and the apostolic age there yawned a fathomless abyss, into whose silent darkness intervening history had fallen, with a Baptist Church on this side, and a New Testament on the other, we should boldly bridge the gulf, and look for the record of our birth among the hills of Galilee. But our history is not thus lost. That work is in progress, which will link the Baptists of to–day with the Baptists of Jerusalem.” (J. R. Graves, Old Landmarkism: What is it? pp. 80–81)[*]


The intervening years have provided much certainty that churches have existed since the time of Christ in the pattern of the New Testament and proclaiming its truth. The work has NOT been accomplished that would establish a succession of churches or even groups of churches. Too many groups have uncertain origin and the effort to establish their origin relies on conjecture and presumption. The effort of Bro. Butler to extablish the origin of the churches in Wales is a good example. To elevate something as uncertain and inexact as historical studies to a doctrinal position reaches beyond the authority of scripture. Thus I say "yes" to perpetuity but "no" to succession.

Rich
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Re: A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby Rlvaughn on 2009 Aug 17 Mon 10:51 am

Brother Butler, I agree that historical facts are too sparse to make "a dot by dot line" or chain-link succession. A statement I often make is that succession is not historically demonstrable. My mention of Christian's History of Baptists is not to suggest that he has demonstrated succession historically. My point about his work is just that I find it frustrating that so many anti-succession polemicists pick on Carroll instead of tackling Christian. To me that is a little like someone wanting to be the heavyweight boxing champion but only fighting middleweights.

I think the best thing to do is for people to believe in church perpetuity based on biblical promises and make a stand there. If the case can be made biblically, then the absence of historical records does not negate it. As far as actual "succession" we ought only claim what we know. I can trace some of my church background back for a couple of generations and then everything becomes "iffy" after that. It doesn't mean the link is broken, it just means that I don't know, historically.

The best use of groups like the Albigenses, Paulicians, etc. is just to show that there were always "dissenters" and that the so-called Catholic Church has never been universal as they claim -- and that they were persecutors of those who disagreed with them. We don't have to know we have a tie to those dissenting groups to know that.
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Re: A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby G. Michael Coulter on 2009 Aug 17 Mon 1:04 pm

Rlvaughn wrote:I think the best thing to do is for people to believe in church perpetuity based on biblical promises and make a stand there. If the case can be made biblically, then the absence of historical records does not negate it. As far as actual "succession" we ought only claim what we know. I can trace some of my church background back for a couple of generations and then everything becomes "iffy" after that. It doesn't mean the link is broken, it just means that I don't know, historically.

The best use of groups like the Albigenses, Paulicians, etc. is just to show that there were always "dissenters" and that the so-called Catholic Church has never been universal as they claim -- and that they were persecutors of those who disagreed with them. We don't have to know we have a tie to those dissenting groups to know that.


I agree with this. I think the real benefits of studying church history is to let people know that we do not have to trace our history through the reformation and the Roman Catholics, and also, it does something to the heart when you read about someone being drowned for the belief of immersion.

Actually, studying church history can become a danger if we begin to rely on historical documentation. Satan would like it so. Steals away our focus on God's Word. I heard an illustration years ago like this.

A boy was in love with trains. He loved to watch trains every chance he got. One day, when his chores were done, he went to the side of a hill to watch trains go by. They came by one after the other and passed out of his sight into a tunnel in the mountain. Finally, one train engine caught his attention so much so that he stood up straight and did not even blink his eyes until it was gone. He could not forget it. He so much wanted to see it again. So, he made the trip down to the depot. There, he found a row of train engines. He went down the row looking for that one engine. Finally, he found it. It had particular markings and colors and shape. He knew it the moment he saw it. Why? He had seen it before. We look in the Bible and see the church. It has particular markings and colors. (doctrines and practices) So here we are at the depot, (present time). There are hundreds of churches. But only one type is the same as the one in the Bible. All we have to do is remind ourselves how the first one looked and we can find it now.
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Re: A Historians critique of Baptist History

Postby Mark Osgatharp on 2009 Aug 18 Tue 7:52 am

Brother Hamlin,

You quoted J.R. Graves as saying:

J.R. Graves wrote:Nor have I, or any other Landmarker known to me, ever advocated the succession of any church or churches; but my position is that Christ, in the very “days of John the Baptist,” did establish a visible kingdom on earth, and that this kingdom has never yet been “broken in pieces,” nor given to another class of subjects—has never for a day “been moved,” nor ceased from the earth, and never will until Christ returns personally to reign over it; (J. R. Graves, Old Landmarkism: What is it? p. 79)


You said,

Richard Hamlin wrote:The intervening years have provided much certainty that churches have existed since the time of Christ in the pattern of the New Testament and proclaiming its truth. The work has NOT been accomplished that would establish a succession of churches or even groups of churches. Too many groups have uncertain origin and the effort to establish their origin relies on conjecture and presumption. The effort of Bro. Butler to extablish the origin of the churches in Wales is a good example. To elevate something as uncertain and inexact as historical studies to a doctrinal position reaches beyond the authority of scripture. Thus I say "yes" to perpetuity but "no" to succession.


I am in full agreement with you so far the historical record goes; but the historical record is not history. History is what actually transpired in the past. The historical record is the existing writings which purport to record what took place in the past. At very best, the historical record is deficient, broken and biased. At very worst, it is pure fabrication.

But I was not asking you about the historical record. I was asking you about the Bible doctrine of perpetuity as it relates to succession. The question is: how can you have perpetuity without succession?

If the churches established by Jesus Christ are perpetual, how could they not be successive one to the other?

Again, I'm not asking you to prove succession by historical documentation. I do not believe it is possible for any man to do that. I'm asking, as a matter of doctrine, how you can believe in church perpetuity without also believing in church succession.

Mark Osgatharp
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