Landmark Baptist

1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

I was wondering if you all had any opinions to what the "all things" we are to enjoy in this verse is?

Is it physical things, spiritual things or both!

Obviously it means without sinning or worshiping those things (idolatry)....that is not the question...the question is what does it include......food, human relationships, fellowship, technology, music, dance, nice houses, cattle, work of our hands, travel, education, sport, holidays, shopping , drama, movies, just wondering what some of you think?

I personally challenge anyone to find one thing that is holy and right outside of the church that can be done in the assembly that is unholy and wrong inside the church!

Jon

To quote your emphasis in another thread, "all means all, brother" I believe the verse says "all things."

Of course, it should be obvious that "all" does not necessarily men the aggregrate or total sum.

so if "'of course", "all things" means all then on what basis or scripture do we use to say these things shouldn't be done in the church setting? God wouldn't tell people to enjoy all things and then tell them they can't when they come together! That's ignorance.

Perhaps it may mean, all your needs, but not your wants?? Just a thought..

Call the scriptures ignorant if you wish, but I refuse to do so. "All" definitely does not mean the total aggregate or sum in every instance. It is you who are taking the position that "all" means total aggregate or sum, then implying that Jesus' restriction on some of that "all" would be ignorant. No so, brother!

I am not calling the scriptures ignorant Bro. Dillard. Do notice that you did not share a scripture to show that we can not enjoy all things that aren't sinful when we come together in an assembly. It is you who did not use scripture...I did.

God tells them to enjoy all things....the context was of both physical and scriptural...obviously it does not include sin.
So if God tells his children who are members of NT churches that they are to enjoy all things in a non-sinful way, where is the scriptural basis for not enjoying those things when they assemble? There is none!

Teaching that these things are wrong in the assembly is unfounded and unscriptural and unlearned.

Along these same lines.....I hear many preach that "in your flesh is no good thing". I have heard preachers teach that this means that no desire of the flesh is good! I think that they take the meaning of this verse way to far in its application. The context in which Paul wrote this was referring to the ability of his flesh to keep the law of God. His flesh was not able in any way to keep the law of God....however this is a far cry from saying that all desires of the flesh are sinful! God gave us all things to enjoy in the context of holiness. If it is not against Gods laws then it is not sin! Men like to say many things are sin and impose their opinions on others. Just because your flesh desires something doesn't make it sinful!
Paul wrote that whatever you do, do it unto the glory of God. Now we know that he was talking about eating and drinking. These are both desires of the flesh!
Humans have many desires but they are not all sinful. Is sex sinful? I think not! The bed is honorable and undefiled in marriage.
God gave us all things to enjoy!

Brother Smith,

You said,

Jon Smith wrote:so if "'of course", "all things" means all then on what basis or scripture do we use to say these things shouldn't be done in the church setting? God wouldn't tell people to enjoy all things and then tell them they can't when they come together! That's ignorance.

The Scripture says,

Paul wrote:Marriage is honorable in all and the bed undefiled.

The implication of that Scripture for you stupid assertion needs no explanation. The following Scriptures fully expose your ignorance.

Solomon wrote:To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; a time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

And,

Paul wrote:Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

And,

Paul wrote:And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

Hey Mark,

I am glad that you responded to my thread. Of course to have relations with your wife at church would not be good if that is what you are implying that I am suggesting. The scripture does say like you pointed out that there is a time and a place for things and the assembly would not be such a place obviously.

I am not sure at what you are getting at with the women keeping silence in the church but that is talking clearly about tongues in context.

Concerning your verse that you quoted on eating at home....I think that the issue was that they were having drunken feasts when they were suppose to be remembering the Lords death in that ordinance. Jesus clearly ate with his disciples when they came together John 21:13

There are many desires of the flesh that are in no wise sinful and the scriptures clearly say to enjoy all things. Within the context of all that is holy and right there is nothing wrong with enjoying all things even in the assembly with your brothers and sisters in Christ.

May God Bless You

Jon Smith wrote:Along these same lines.....I hear many preach that "in your flesh is no good thing". I have heard preachers teach that this means that no desire of the flesh is good! I think that they take the meaning of this verse way to far in its application. The context in which Paul wrote this was referring to the ability of his flesh to keep the law of God. His flesh was not able in any way to keep the law of God....however this is a far cry from saying that all desires of the flesh are sinful! God gave us all things to enjoy in the context of holiness. If it is not against Gods laws then it is not sin! Men like to say many things are sin and impose their opinions on others. Just because your flesh desires something doesn't make it sinful!
Paul wrote that whatever you do, do it unto the glory of God. Now we know that he was talking about eating and drinking. These are both desires of the flesh!
Humans have many desires but they are not all sinful. Is sex sinful? I think not! The bed is honorable and undefiled in marriage.
God gave us all things to enjoy!

Oh boy two times in one day, I am going to admit that I lean towards your way of thinking here also. The problem I find with many people is they take their desire (good bad or indifferent) and they try to satisfy their desire. God is to be the one who satisfies our desire. For example Adam desired a helpmate, God satisfied that desire. Abraham and Sarah desired a son they tried to satisfy their desire and caused all kinds of trouble for themselves, had they waited on God then it would have been better for them all around.

Today Churches do similar (granted not all but more than should be the case) things, instead of waiting on God to fulfill their desires some rush to decisions that end up causing much trouble. Some desires we are not to have but other desires are perfectly righteous to have prudence and patience is the key to honoring those Godly desires.

Brother Smith,

You said,

Jon Smith wrote:so if "'of course", "all things" means all then on what basis or scripture do we use to say these things shouldn't be done in the church setting? God wouldn't tell people to enjoy all things and then tell them they can't when they come together! That's ignorance.

The Scriptures I posted show that your assertion is false. Just because something is good within itself does not mean it is good to do in a church setting. You said,

Jon Smith wrote:Of course to have relations with your wife at church would not be good if that is what you are implying that I am suggesting. The scripture does say like you pointed out that there is a time and a place for things and the assembly would not be such a place obviously.

No, I was not suggesting that you implied it would be good to have sex in the assembly. I was suggesting that would be the end result if you consistently applied your philosophy that just because something is good then it is good to "be done in the church setting." I knew you wouldn't consistently apply your principle. You just want to use it to justify doing whatever you are wanting to do. You have shown by the above statement that you really don't believe your own philosophy and that you know that some things, though good and given to us by God, are not suitable to be done everywhere at all times. You said,

Jon Smith wrote:I am not sure at what you are getting at with the women keeping silence in the church but that is talking clearly about tongues in context.

To start with, the context was not talking about tongues, it was talking about prophesying and asking questions in church and Paul told the women not to speak in the church and if they had any questions to ask their husbands,

Paul wrote:at home.

It is a good thing for women to speak the wisdom of God as well as to ask questions, but they are forbidden to do that in the church. Paul makes a clear cut distinction between what is appropriate "at home" and what is appropriate "in the churches." You said,

Jon Smith wrote:Concerning your verse that you quoted on eating at home....I think that the issue was that they were having drunken feasts when they were suppose to be remembering the Lords death in that ordinance.

Amen! You are refuting your own argument. Paul clearly said that there are times when it is not appropriate to eat in order to satisfy your hunger. Even if this applied only to the Lord's supper it would totally blow your premise, because it proves that just because something is good does not mean it is good everywhere at all times. But that he was not talking only about the Lord's supper is proven by these words:

Paul wrote:What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

But you said,

Jon Smith wrote:Jesus clearly ate with his disciples when they came together John 21:13

Yes, but every time they came together does not mean they were assembled as a church. The Corinthian passage makes a clear distinction between what is done "in the church" which must mean a formal assembly of the church as opposed to a casual assembly of the church, or else church people could never get together and eat, and let the women talk and ask questions, without violating the word of God.

The passages prove conclusively that though a thing is good does not mean it is necessarily good to do when the church is assembled for the worship of God. Of course, you already conceded this when you said,

Jon Smith wrote:The scripture does say like you pointed out that there is a time and a place for things and the assembly would not be such a place obviously.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

If its not good in a church setting there is a reason and probably because it would be sin in that setting and therefore not included in all things! God gave all things to enjoy and that is within the context of things which are not sinful...obviously

This doesn't seem difficult to understand....is it bro.?

Brother Smith

You said,

Jon Smith wrote:If its not good in a church setting there is a reason and probably because it would be sin in that setting and therefore not included in all things! God gave all things to enjoy and that is within the context of things which are not sinful...obviously

This doesn't seem difficult to understand....is it bro.?

Amen! You just denounced the original philosophy you asserted which was that if a thing was not sinful within itself it would not be sinful within a church setting. You have now modified that to the truth, which is that, though a thing may not be sinful within itself - such as the marriage bed - it would be sinful in a church setting.

So really, Paul's assertion about all things being given by God for us to enjoy proves nothing whatsoever about what is sinful or not sinful in a church setting.

Just to nail this down really tight, consider this another example from the Scripture: the law affirmed the right of the Jews to bring money to Jerusalem and there purchase sacrifices to offer to God. Therefore it was not sinful to buy and sell animals for sacrifice. But the Lord's drove out those who did so in the Temple because He said His house was to be a house of prayer and they had made it a house of merchandising. Thus, that which was wholesome within itself - merchandising - became sinful when it was brought into the house of God.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

In the last five weeks I have been mostly out of town. Mission Trip, ABA, and two camps. Sorry I have not written back. Honestly its not one of my top priorities

Actually I didn't denounce the original teaching. If it is not acceptable in the church it is because it is sin in that setting. I clearly stated from the beginning that "All Things" were in reference to All things holy. Just because something is good in one place and not in another does not mean it can't be part of "all things" in the right place.

Now if you want to discuss what is appropriate and not appropriate to do in the assembly that is a whole different discussion and argument that is based mostly on culture, personal preference and church preference as opposed to whether a thing be sinful or not.

The reason things should not be done in the assembly is because they are sinful not because we don't prefer them. Sin is Sin. Sin is not those things that would go against ones preference. Sin are those things that God says not to do or that we should do but don't as in Isaiah 58!

Brother Smith:

You need to make up your mind because you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. First you said "if it is not acceptable in the church it is because it is sin in that setting." Then you said, "Sin is Sin. Sin is not those things that would go against ones preference. Sin are those things that God says not to do or that we should do but don't as in Isaiah 58!"

So which is it: are there some things that are not sinful within themselves but are sinful within the context of the church or must something be sinful within itself before it becomes sinful in the church?

Eating is not sinful. Eating in the church is sinful, unless we are eating the Lord's supper with the right intention and frame of heart. It is not a sin for women to teach and speak God's word. It is sinful for women to speak in God's assembly. It is not sinful to make merchandise. It is sinful to make merchandise in God's house. These things are explicit Bible examples of things that are good and wholesome and not sinful within themselves, but become sinful when done in God's house.

Based on these examples, we might fairly infer that anything which subverts the purpose for which the church assembles becomes sinful, though not sinful within itself. You have already conceded this and yet you are still trying to argue that because something is given to us by God and is good it is therefore good in the context of the church.

In other words, you are only applying your principle to the things you want to do in church while reserving the right to declare something sinful in a church setting if you don't prefer it. Ergo, the only difference between you and the folks you are criticizing is that you have different preferences than they.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

The problem you are having is that you have a fatal flaw in your argument against mine Bro. Mark...that is why you can not see the truth.

you made the argument that says that I am saying

1. private relations with your wife are good
2. therefore public relations with your wife are good in the church setting

Your flaw is that your comparison is wrong. like bro. dillard likes to say "your argument is a straw man" its not actually the point...the correct argument should be

1. relations with your wife in public are sinful
2. therefore public relations with your wife in a church setting are sinful.

yes I am saying that any thing good and holy outside of the church is good inside the church.....but your comparison was flawed.....relations in public are wrong outside the church and therefore wrong inside the church setting. Private relations with ones wife are good outside the church but impossible in an assembly (which would make it public)...therefore your argument is fatally flawed!

Concerning eating at church and that being sinful? David ate the showbread in the temple! Yet he did not sin Matt 9:13. Eating in the assembly is not wrong....what was wrong was coming together for the purpose only of eating and for having drunken feasts. Paul was not saying that it was wrong to eat at church he was saying that the manner by which they were doing it was wrong "1Co 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before [other] his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
1Co 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not?"

Once again
1. It is sinful to eat without sharing with the hungry
2. therefore it is sinful to eat without sharing with the hungry in the assembly

also

1. It is sinful to get drunk at home
2. therefore it is sinful to get drunk at church!

These verses in no way even closely say it is sinful to eat in the church....they are in reference to not sharing and getting drunk. Paul asks the question why don't you just eat at home....but he never says it is sin to eat at church....the manner and spirit in which they were doing it was sinful.

God Bless.

Brother Smith,

You said,

Jon Smith wrote:Your flaw is that your comparison is wrong. like bro. dillard likes to say "your argument is a straw man" its not actually the point...the correct argument should be

1. relations with your wife in public are sinful
2. therefore public relations with your wife in a church setting are sinful.

My argument is neither flawed nor a straw man. My argument is pristine perfect as you have just unwittingly showed.

The sexual relationship is good, created by God and given to man to enjoy. It becomes sinful, though, in certain settings, such as in public or when used outside the bonds of lawful marriage. Therefore, the mere fact of something being given by God for us to enjoy does not mean He intends for us to enjoy it anywhere and everywhere and in every situation.

The same holds true for the other examples I gave such as eating in church. You said,

Jonathon Smith wrote:Paul asks the question why don't you just eat at home....but he never says it is sin to eat at church....the manner and spirit in which they were doing it was sinful.

It is true that the manner and spirit in which they were doing it was sinful. It is also true that the Holy Spirit forever solved that problem by telling us to eat at home if we are hungry. He said,

Paul wrote:Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation.

Even if it is wholesome to eat in the church and the application of this is limited to the observance of the Lord's supper, it still proves your argument about "all things" totally fallacious. If it is wholesome to satisfy your hunger in the church, yet not to satisfy your hunger when the church is gathered to eat the Lord's supper, then some things given us by God to enjoy are not meant by God to be enjoyed in all situations.

The purpose of the Lord's supper is to remember the Lord's sacrifice and therefore doing it to satisfy your hunger is sinful. The purpose of the church is to worship God and expound his word and sing praises to His honor and glory. Therefore, anything which is subversive of or not specifically conducive to those ends is sinful in the church. That is why the Lord condemned the money changers for making His house a house of merchandising - not that merchandising is sinful, because it is not. But it is sinful when done in God's house because God's house was not meant to be a house of merchandising.

So again, I say, the fact that God has given us all non-sinful things to enjoy proves 100% nothing about what is sinful or not sinful within the church. That must be determined by what is specifically conducive to and not subversive of the worship of God, the preaching of His word and the praising of His name in song. And I might add, that if some specific behavior is doubtful as to its propriety in the church, we would be better to err on the safe side and do only those things which we know of a certainty are good and wholesome to be done in His house.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

Bro. Mark you are comparing apples to oranges and your logic is not accurate as I have demonstrated.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


The bottom line is that you are comparing private relations to public relations and not sharing and getting drunk to eating
If you can not see your wrongful premises and comparisons then I don't know how to help you.

God gave us all things to enjoy that are holy and right and what is holy and right outside of the church is holy and right inside the church.
You have not showed one thing that is holy and right outside the church that is wrong inside the church.

In your replies you have only showed 3 things

1. You have showed rather that private relations are impossible in a public assembly thereby proving my point.
2. You have also showed that not sharing and getting drunk are wrong in the assembly but they are also wrong outside the assembly.
3. You have also showed that when the Lords Supper is being observed that it is wrong to use it as an opportunity to satisfy hunger and misuse it.
but that doesn't mean it is sinful to eat in the church it means it is sinful to misuse the Lords Supper!!!!

you have proven nothing my friend. Keep trying

I personally challenge you to find one thing that is holy and right outside of the church that can be done in the assembly that is unholy and wrong inside the church!

God Bless!

Brother Smith,

You said,

Jonathon Smith wrote:The bottom line is that you are comparing private relations to public relations and not sharing and getting drunk to eating

Again, the very fact that a thing that is wholesome and good - sex - becomes sinful in certain circumstances proves that just because something is wholesome and good doesn't mean it is wholesome and good in all circumstances and therefore your theory falls.

If it was true that the only consideration concerning the Lord's supper was not sharing and getting drunk, all you would have proven is that that particular Scripture didn't forbid taking the Lord's supper to satisfy your hunger, so long as you shared and didn't get drunk. But the text does address more than the issue of not sharing and getting drunk, because it says,

Paul wrote:Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation.

You said,

Jonathon Smith wrote:You have also showed that when the Lords Supper is being observed that it is wrong to use it as an opportunity to satisfy hunger and misuse it.
but that doesn't mean it is sinful to eat in the church it means it is sinful to misuse the Lords Supper!!!!

OK, let's say you are right: it still proves your theory to be in error. Your theory is that if God gave us something good there is no reason it wouldn't be good in the church. But if it is wrong to subvert the purpose for which the Lord's supper was established by eating it to satisfy your hunger, there is no reason to think that the church cannot be likewise subverted by using it for a purpose other than that for which God intended it. But you said,

Jonathon Smith wrote:I personally challenge you to find one thing that is holy and right outside of the church that can be done in the assembly that is unholy and wrong inside the church!

1. Women speaking.

2. Merchandising.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

Mark...you still aren't listening.

any thing that is holy and right can be perverted or used outside of the boundaries that God gives. That is not the point

The point is that anything that is holy and right outside the assembly that is possible to do inside the assembly is holy and right inside the church!

First of all Women speaking in the church is referring to speaking in tongues not just speaking. The idea is that God would be teaching men through a woman and we know that it is not acceptable for women to teach men in biblical things. Therefore the proper logic is

1. It is wrong for women to teach biblical things to believing adult men outside the church
2. therefore it is wrong for women to teach biblical things to believing adult men inside the church.

It is good for women to speak outside the church and it is good for them to speak inside the church. The problem is that you have twisted the context.

Secondly,

Can you show me a scripture where it says merchandising inside the church is unscriptural. Are you really saying its wrong for Gods people to do business with each other and not buy things and services from each other? I don't think so....I think this is a building thing as opposed to an assembly thing. Is it wrong for a church to vote in business meeting to pay brother Mike Brown for fixing the AC and installing a new unit? I don't think so! Well that is merchandising
I know that Jesus clearly blasted the Jews for making the temple a den of thieves and charging people to worship....but this is far different than selling things for a fair price and not for the purpose of worship. One of the bigger issues is that they had set up this scheme to take advantage of those needing to buy sacrifices by setting up in the court of the gentiles. This gave the gentiles no place to come and worship...once again you have twisted the context to make your point.

Mark it seems to me that you struggle with discerning the spirit of the laws of Christ as opposed to the letter and then gain some kind of joy at telling people if they don't follow your interpretation of the letter that they aren't keeping Gods commands and they don't love God. It seems to me that you need to take your own medicine and make sure you are not violating Gods commands to focus on the spirit (understanding) of the laws as opposed to the letters. Failure to do this would show me that you are not following his commands and do not love him Search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life is a very serious statement to those who were focused on the letters of the law as opposed to the spirit and understanding. The scripture says "They honor me with their lips (letters and words of the law) but their hearts (spirit and understanding) are far from me".

Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw [it], they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


You still have not shown me anything bro.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God Bless!

Brother Smith,

You said,

Jonathon Smith wrote:you still aren't listening.

Yes, I am listening. I understood exactly what you said when you first said it. I recognized it as an error and so I exposed it, but since you are adamant about doing what you want to do in the church, you won't listen to sound reason and Scriptural exposition. You said,

Jonathon Smith wrote:any thing that is holy and right can be perverted or used outside of the boundaries that God gives. That is not the point.

Oh, but that is the point - that is my point precisely. You originally said that if something is given by God to enjoy it can be enjoyed in the church without sin. Of course, you really didn't believe that because you understand well that some wholesome things are not appropriate for the church. You said,

Jonathon Smith wrote:First of all Women speaking in the church is referring to speaking in tongues not just speaking.

Actually, that is not the case. The immediate context was about prophesying. Women did prophesy and yet they were forbidden by Paul to do so in the church - that is when the church was assembled. But it was not merely about prophesying, any more than it was merely about speaking on tongues, because Paul said that if the women had questions to,

Paul wrote:....ask their husbands at home.

So Paul puts a clear distinction between women asking questions at home - which is wholesome - and asking questions in the church, which is shameful. You said,

Jonathon Smith wrote:The idea is that God would be teaching men through a woman and we know that it is not acceptable for women to teach men in biblical things. Therefore the proper logic is

1. It is wrong for women to teach biblical things to believing adult men outside the church
2. therefore it is wrong for women to teach biblical things to believing adult men inside the church.

In order for your argument to hold any weight, you'd have to prove that is is wrong for women to teach biblical things to believing adult men outside the church. Nothing in the Bible says that it is. Paul said that women were not to teach the men in I Timothy, but that was said in the context of how we ought to behave ourselves,

Paul wrote:...In the house of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and the ground of the truth.

You said,

Jonathon Smith wrote:Can you show me a scripture where it says merchandising inside the church is unscriptural.

Jesus said,

John wrote:And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

The Lord's house is not a house of merchandise. Merchandisiing itself is not sinful. Selling sacrifices for worship was not in itself sinful. It was sinful to make God's house a house of merchandising. Since the church is God's house in the New Testament era, we can fairly assume that it is sinful to merchandise in God's house. But you said,

Jonathon Smith wrote:Are you really saying its wrong for Gods people to do business with each other and not buy things and services from each other?

I said nor implied no such thing. It is perfectly wholesome for God's people to do business with each other. But it would be wrong for God's people to use the church to do their business. You said,

Jonathon Smith wrote:I know that Jesus clearly blasted the Jews for making the temple a den of thieves and charging people to worship....but this is far different than selling things for a fair price and not for the purpose of worship.

The first time Jesus ran them out of the temple, as recorded in John, His only admonition was,

John wrote:And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

I'd like to present a different perspective.

1 Timothy 6:17-19 states, “Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.”

It appears to me that this text has absolutely nothing to do with the already understood responsibilities one has to the church of his membership. As I see it, y'all have debated for days about a subject matter that may be worth debating, but that has little to do with the above quoted Scripture. I think the context has been missed altogether. I see nothing in the context that indicates that any of it is about things done 'within' the assembly; nor does it have anything to do with what is 'holy' or 'right' as opposed to 'unholy' or 'wrong'.

I see the WHOLE SPHERE of what is being said as that which appertains to a man's life OUTSIDE the assembly of the Church. The 'all things' in this passage that God gives us to enjoy are ALL Secular (physical things); They are ALL unholy (not that they are 'sinful', but they are 'Common'); NONE of them are “Holy”; and none of them have anything to do with the 'assembly' of the church (where 'things' are “Holy”). They have nothing to do with things that are wrong or sinful inside or outside the church. They may be richly given good gifts from God, but they are not “Holy”.

The rich are commanded to use the wealth that God gives them for His honour and glory, apart and above/beyond their faithfulness to Him in the church. “Laying up in store” in verse 19 means to 'treasure up' or 'secure' for themselves and is NOT the word “tithe” that we see in 1 Corinthians 16:2 teaching us about the 10% required of us. I understand that those things spoken of in verse 18 may be things done as a member of a church, but they are not dealing with the work of the church itself, but more so the 'social' (or more general) witness/testimony of the man.

Please don't read into the text something that is not there. God isn't telling us anything about what He gave us to enjoy when we come together in the assembly of the church; on the contrary, it has everything to do with the way one is to conduct himself outside of the sphere of the assembly. Every passage of Scripture doesn't have to have an application to every aspect of life that we can think of.

Bro Jerry

Brother Jerry,

You said,

Jerry wrote:As I see it, y'all have debated for days about a subject matter that may be worth debating, but that has little to do with the above quoted Scripture. I think the context has been missed altogether.

You are absolutely correct. The passage has nothing to do with what is or isn't sinful within the church. That is exactly what I said when I said,

Mark Osgatharp wrote:So again, I say, the fact that God has given us all non-sinful things to enjoy proves 100% nothing about what is sinful or not sinful within the church.

Your post is absolutely correct and only goes to prove exactly what I've been proving to brother Smith "for days".

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

On the issue of merchandising......Jesus said life is not about raiment. He also said you can not serve God and mammon etc. If a person makes the sole purpose of their existance outside of the churchabout merchandising instead of glorifying God then they are in sin....in the same way making the Lords temple a "house" of merchandising...the main purpose is sinful.

I can hear Bro. Erasmus in the church at Corinth in business meeting now..."brethern, let's help the less fortunate homeless strangers like it says in Matthew 25 and buy some of bro. Paul's tents....he will give us a good rate and we can help him at the same time since he's been doing such a good job and all" I second.....all in favor. Done!

On another angle.....Besides the fact that this command wasn't given to the Church....the temple building is a much different thing than an assembly of people....how do you make an assembly of people a permanent building? You can make a church building a store....but the church building isn't the church. Now you could say that a church is a "spiritually symbolic building" well then Once again you have managed to compare apples with oranges again.

Many of our churches are victims of our culture of duality. Christ does not want us to live two seperate lives but one that is holy and right! Those that are rich here would be referring to those in the Church....right? How can God tell people that it is ok to do somethings outside of the church but not ok to do them when they assemble? Anything that is to be enjoyed that is holy and right outside of the church that can be done can be done in the church.

The bottom line is that Mark and anyone else has yet to show one thing that is holy and right outside the church that can actually be done in the assembly that is wrong....this is undeniable.

bro. Jerry, to your "Common" vs. "Holy" thing

Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.

Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The Faith and Salvation are referred to as common...in your mind does this make them not "holy"

Tit 1:4 To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Lastly

God wants us to live holy at all times in all things we do even the things we enjoy ! So all things that are holy and right outside the church are holy and right inside the church! We do not live double lives!

2Pe 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,

God Bless