Landmark Baptist

I see that this board has gotten very little activity, so I thought I would liven it up a little. Perhaps this is a question we could have a little more fun with.

I came across another verse of Scripture that seems to be evidence that the rapture must occur after the Tribulation. "But go thou (Daniel/O.T. saint) thy way (death) till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand (be resurrected) in thy lot at the end of the days (Chapter 12 about the Great Tribulation, or last three-and-a-half years)." (Daniel 12:13, parentheses mine)

Interesting results! Most Missionary Baptists that I have known are pre-trib. It wasn't until seminary that I found out that many of my instructors were post-trib. Up until then I had not really studied it out for myself, and always balked at the post-trib position. I had come from a church that was strongly pre-trib, you see. But when I finally did delve into the Scriptures (and not commentaries) I came away a post-tribber, much to my surprise.

revcathari

Nice to see you on the forum again, Bro. Ray!

UtahLandmarker wrote:how do you all feel about the "seventieth week" of Daniel? I believe like bro mcc, that the first 3 1/2 years were during the ministry of Christ and we are waiting for the clock to start ticking again.

It's been a long time since I've seen bro. McElmurray. Back in the mid 90s he gave us seminary students a week long lecture on end times events, which was very informative and exciting to listen to. While he was there he also sat on the presbytery when I was ordained, and was the one who was chosen to do the questioning. Talk about my being nervous!! I actually had to listen to him very carefully, because the way he framed his questions it was like going in a great big circle till he finally came to his point, lol.

I haven't read his blogs so I'm not familiar with how he comes to the conclusion that the 3.5 years of Christ's ministry constitutes the first half of Daniel's Seventieth Week. Last I understood from him he was a mid-tribber, I believe. If he still is a mid-tribber, then I suppose he feels we could all go at any moment seeing that NOW would be a mid-trib period, on account of the fact that we stand between those 3.5 years of Christ's ministry and the advent of the last half of the trib. Am I making sense?

revcathari

Bro. Ray,

What are the addresses to Bro. McElmurry's blogs? I like to bookmark ABA blogs. Clearly, Christ cannot come before the middle because the Antichrist will not be revealed to the middle. (2 Thessalonians 2). "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God.." etc. in verse 4 in present participle, meaning that the abomination of desolation is present with and the same as him being revealed. Then, "whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" in verse 8 is in the future participle meaning "the coming of Lord Jesus Christ..." and "our gathering together unto him" from verse 1 is after the middle. Have just a little Greek, so if anyone has more Greek knowledge, they might blow all I just said right out of the water.

younglandmarker,

bro. McElmurry's site is http://www.tribulationperiod.com/

There you can access his blog.

I agree with your assessment of the verse in 2 Thess.

1 Thess. 4:16-17 is also telling: when Christ "steps down from heaven," the dead in Christ shall rise and we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet him in the air, not in heaven. So as Christ is descending from heaven all his saints will meet him in the air, being now glorified bodily, and with him they will continue to descend to earth where Christ plants his feet on the mount of Olives facing Jerusalem, and then he will come into the city to sit on HIS throne. A great illustration of this was given us when Christ rode on a donkey into the city, and it is said that a great multitude went before him and followed him. What a beautiful picture of the saints in heaven following Christ in his coming and those coming to meet him in the air before he comes to Jerusalem to rule!

revcathari

younglandmarker wrote: The Rapture: Where do you stand?

I believe there will be one!

I didn't notice this section earlier when I posted Eschatology and Fellowship:
eschatology-and-fellowship-t410.html

I suppose it should be down here. Sorry about that. I don't know how to move it or I would.

Moving topics around is my job. I missed this request. It is now done.

Thanks, Chad.

I didn't really make a request; just was complaining at myself for not posting it in the right place. But I'm glad you noticed and moved it.

Since this has been a hotter topic lately I thought I would post this.

1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17
“For the Lord Himself shall descend from hevaen with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Introduction
The rapture is on a lot of people's minds these days -- especially with world events happening as they are, and Bible prophecy being fulfilled right and left. But in reality, few among the saved really know much truth concerning the "rapture" or what the qualifications there are in meeting the Lord in the air.

I. THE TERM RAPTURE
The first place we should start would be to define the word rapture. The term comes from the Latin rapere, meaning to seize, snatch, catch. A related English term would be our word rape. Although the term rapture itself is not found in our Bibles, the teaching of a "snatching, seizing, and catching " is definitely found. Hence, the term rapture was applied.

II. SCRIPTURES WHICH SHOW A FUTURE RAPTURE
There are a number of passages which do in fact indicate a snatching of people from off the surface of the earth as is commonly understood. Let us now look at them:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 -- CAUGHT UP
Paul describes the time when some will be caught up off the earth to meet the Lord in the air (lower atmosphere). These people will of course defy the law of gravity as they ascend upward toward Jesus. This is the only passage which actually places the meeting of Jesus and people upward from the earth.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 -- GATHERING TOGETHER
In this passage, we see an emphasis upon a gathering of certain people with Jesus, although there is no mention as to where the meeting will take place. Of course, that question was answered already in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Ephesians 5:25-27 -- PRESENTATION UNTO CHRIST
There will be a presentation of Christ's bride to Himself. How will they all be presented to Him -- via the gathering...the rapture!

John 14:1-3 -- RECEPTION UNTO CHRIST
Jesus told His disciples (His first church) that He had to go and prepare a place for them, but would come again to "receive them" unto Himself. This once again is a referral to the gathering...to the rapture.

Matthew 24:31 & Mark 13:27 -- A GATHERING
Now, we see that angels will be involved in the rapture; they will be sent out to gather together the people unto Jesus.

Revelation 14:1-5 -- A REDEMPTION
People are seen standing on Mt. Zion with Christ. How did they get there? They were gathered unto Him by angels from all over the earth.

III. WHO WILL BE GATHERED UNTO CHRIST?
Now that we have examined various passages describing what the rapture is, namely a gathering, a presentation, a reception, and a redemption, we will now look at WHO will be gathered unto Jesus when He returns. We will look at some of the same passages as well as new ones.

Matthew 25:1-13 -- "THE WISE"
This parable is not dealing with saved and lost people, but rather is dealing with "wise" and "foolish" people. In particular, the parable is speaking to those in covenant relationship. Jesus describes all ten of these as "virgins." They all held the same position...all had the same potential insomuch as meeting the bridegroom was concerned.

Note, however, that the only the "wise" go out to meet the "bridegroom." If the "wise" represent all saved people, then we have all saved in the bride, or in other words, a universal bride. These would not necessarily have to be "wise," to meet the bridegroom, just merely saved! They could be backslidden, scripturally baptized, or with unscriptural baptism -- it wouldn't make any difference if the "wise" meant "saved."

On the otherhand, if "wise" means faithful, then we have another qualification in addition to being saved. One would have to be faithful to God's commands in whatever age he lived in order to be considered as "wise." Those who do not make the necessary preparations to meet the bridegroom will be considered "foolish." Those who were "ready" went out to meet the bridegroom. Not all the "virgins" went out to meet the bridegroom, hence the consequences for not being ready at the appropriate time is seen in this parable.

John 14:1-3 -- WILL RECEIVE YOU
Jesus was speaking to His church telling them that He was going away to prepare a place for THEM. He was not including all the saved. The bride will have a special place prepared for them to rule the nations with Jesus.

Ephesians 5:25-27-- CHURCH PRESENTED TO CHRIST
Only those who have met the necessary qualifications will be gathered and presented to Christ as His bride.

Matthew 24:31 -- GATHERING OF THE ELECT
The angels are sent out to gather the ELECT. Who are the elect? They are the chosen of God who submitted to His qualifications and lived their lives by faith. These are the faithful of all ages -- those in covenant fellowship with God.

Revelation 17:14 -- CALLED, CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL
As the Lord returns to the earth, the armies of Antichrist are poised against Jesus. There will be a group of people descending with Him when He makes His way toward the earth. These were just moments ago called up to meet Him in the air having met certain qualifications; they are the called, chosen [elect], and faithful.

Revelation 19:6-8, 11-15 -- ARMIES IN WHITE LINEN
Those who went out to meet the bridegroom are seen coming back dressed in white linen which is the wedding garment. If all the saved were raptured, then all saved are in the bride.

IV. WHEN WILL THE RAPTURE OCCUR?
Now that we have examined various passages describing what the rapture is...and who will be gathered unto Jesus when He returns, we will now look at the timing of the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17
This passage alone does not indicate a time-frame, but there are some "clues" to help establish a time of Jesus' return. In this passage we note the mention of a trumpet sounding when Jesus returns. We also note that Jesus will meet His bride in the clouds.

1 Corinthians 15:51, 52
Paul told the Corinthians that Jesus would return at the "last trump." If Jesus returns at the last trump, then there had to be previous trumpets blown before the one that signals the dead and living saints to meet Jesus in the air. Those believing in a first-of-the-week rapture have to suppose there were other trumpets before the "last" trump that signals the rapture. We are told of no such other trumpets at that time.

Revelation 11:15-18
We are told of a series of trumpets in the book of Revelation however. These trumpets are sounded in the last half of the tribulation period. At the sounding of the 7th (last) trumpet we note the return of Christ and the resurrection.

Matthew 24:29-31
Jesus Himself set the time-frame of His return. He told His disciples (His church) that "after the tribulation of those days...he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet." Jesus is also at this time seen coming in the clouds.

Conclusion
It is not difficult to learn the facts surrounding the RAPTURE. It is difficult to overcome false ideas previously learned, however. But once we let the Bible teach us, we shall know the truth; and the truth will make us free. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

Me, I am a end of the weeker
.. (The first end) I can't stand pain so I am going with the Church of Philadelphia Rev 3:7-10...13

Please see the 'Order Of Events' page of the 'End Times' section of my 'Grasp Truth' web site (in my sig).

Utahlandmarker wrote:It is hard to follow the timeline because it is so big. Can it be condensed and looked another way?

"Sorry about that..."

I had to fix the column widths to give it a "regular" [spaced] appearance.

I "aimed for" a font size that most people could read without having to make any adjustments.

Whatever your browser can do is about all I can suggest at the moment.

One thing I did do was to place the 'event' markers/names/descriptions between all rows so that the "order of events" could be better followed. I hope it helps.

I know it's big - but if you could see all of it, you would not be able to read it.

I write my own HTML "from scratch" with an editor (just basic level stuff so far). Until I find a better way to present the data...

As you move down the "event line" - in many places where the same verse of scripture is repeated across two or more 'events', the part(s) of the verse(s) that apply to that 'event' (in that column) are bolded. This is to illustrate that the verse(s) actually span more than a specific 'event'. The "bars" at the top illustrate the spans.

The colored text illustrates something of significance that is referenced forward to a later 'event'.

Please enjoy - as much as you can (and check back from time to time).

I do intend to improve whatever I can as I go. But there is also a lot to do (on the site) -- many pages to write (and finish writing)...

"I'm just getting started..."

If anyone has a question -- please feel free to ask...