Landmark Baptist

Brethren,

This forum at one time was very active, where did everybody?

I have several questions I plan to present for discussion over the next few weeks, hopefully I will get some responses.
{I don't know if this is the correct place to put this, but here goes???}
The first question is: (As I see it, this question may involves several sub-questions.)

1. The main question is what is the timing of the battle described in Chapters 38 and 39?
For a long time I have wandered and studied about this?
Many call it the battle of Gog and Magog.

2. Is this the same as the Battle of Armageddon? I have read and also heard some say yes and some say no. What say you?

3. Or is this the same as the what is spoken of in Revelation Chapter 20?

4. I would appreciate any other comments and replies that you may take time to give.

My God bless you and I thank for you answers and input ahead of time.

jll2
Gillette, WY
***Preaching Jesus Christ and Him Crucified: ***The only ONE who can forgive our sins:
***The only Way of Eternal Salvation; ***The One and Only Saviour.

P. S. This may have been discussed sometime in the past on this forum before I joined, If so I am not aware of it.

To many changes to fast turned people off of coming in I think.

I will think over the rest of your post though.

Brother Looney,

I think the battle mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is the same battle mentioned in Revelation chapter 20.

Also, I think that that the vision of the valley of dry bones is a vision of the resurrection (not the reestablishment of an unbelieving Jewish state as has often been asserted). When you look at it from this perspective, Ezekiel's visions exactly parallel the order of events as laid out in the Revelation.

Just a thought: Ezekiel states that after the battle of Gog and Magog they will use the weapons of war for fire wood for seven years. This would confirm that by that time the modern implements of wars will have been destroyed and the nations will come against Israel with what we would call primitive weapons.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

Brother Looney:

I have always considered the battle of Gog and Magog to be the same as the battle of Armageddon; however, Brother J.C. James viewed them as two separate battles. His last work before going to heaven is a book entitled THE RETURN OF CHRIST. It can be purchased from the bookstore in Texarkana for about ten bucks. It will definitely be worth your time, money and reading.

Bro. Dillard,

I have always heard it taught that the battle of Armageddon and the battle of Gog and Magog were two distinct battles separated by the 1000 year reign. You say you have seen them as the same battle. I would be interested in hearing more of this. I certaily am not a prophecy expert, and I am eager to know more. What leads you to the conclusion that they are the same battle?

Brother Coulter:

Perhaps I mistated the title of the battle, but I was referencing the battle in Ezekiel 38 and 39, the one under question by Brother Looney. I have considered it to be the same as Armageddon, but Brother James considers them two distinct battles. I do not reference the final gog and magog at the end of the millennium which is not a battle at all but the destruction of evil forces that wish to do battle. Hope this helps clarify my input.

Bro. Dillard,

Thank you. Yes that does help.

Bro. Mark and Bro. Dillard,

Thanks for your input.

I have Bro. James' old book but have never purchased the new one. I plan to do so.

I will be making more comments in the near future. Once again thanks for your comments.

jll2
Gillette, WY
***Preaching Jesus Christ and Him Crucified: ***The only ONE who can forgive our sins:
***The only Way of Eternal Salvation; ***The One and Only Saviour.

Just bumping this up

jll2
Gillette, WY

Again, I would like to thank Bro. Mark Osgatharp and Bro. W. A. Dillard for there replies.

This is my reply to my own questions on the Lankmark Baptist Forum that I posted on 10/8/2009 (For the original questions please refer to post.)

I would appreciate further comments.

This is the introduction to some lessons I taught here in our church back in May, 2008.
I have also given the conclusion. This explains my position which is not a dogmatic position.

INTRODUCTION:
A. Chapters 38 and 39 concern the matter of Gog and Magog.
1. Gog is the prince or ruler while Magog is the land or territory or nation(s).
2. Several other names of allied peoples or nations are given.
3. One of the main problems in interpretation of these two chapters is the difficulty in identifying who the nations represent in the world of the 20th and 21th centuries A. D.
4. Dr. J. W. Kesner, Sr. wrote: "One may better understand chapter 38 (and 39 - added by JLL2) if he keeps in mind that chapters 34,36,37 really depict God's promises to restore Israel in their land" (Kesner, p. 410).
5. This writer will depend upon class notes from the late Dr. O. R. Baldwin's seminary classes from the fall of 1984 and 1986; as well as the late Dr. J. W. Kesner, Sr's book on Ezekiel, and books by late Dr. I. K. Cross on Prophesy and Israel. These men (all preachers within the fellowship of the American Baptist Association of Landmark Missionary Baptist) have given much study to the subject of Bible Prophesy.
B. Chapters 38 and 39 concern what is called the Battle of Gog and Magog and the destruction of their armies when they come into Israel to destroy and take spoil.
1. God is said to be the one to allow them and cause them to do this, Ezekiel 38:4.
2. God will cause them to fight against themselves, Ezekiel 38:21.
3. God will call down pestilence and "...an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone" upon them, Ezekiel 38:22.
C. Why will this take place?
1. The answer is given in Ezekiel 38:23 (KJV) "Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD."
2. From the very first of His counsel in the halls of eternity past it was God desire, purpose, and design that the man and woman He would create would worship and serve Him and honor Him alone. (This, of course, includes all of mankind.)
D. Another problem with the interpretation is the timing of this future event.
1. First, it has not taken place as of yet (May, 2008 or October, 2009); it is yet future.
a. Ezekiel 38:8 implies that it will be when Israel "...shall dwell safely all of them."
b. Ezekiel 38:14 indicates that it shall be "...In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely...."
c. Dr. J. W. Kesner, Sr. wrote: "Ezekiel 38:14,15 declare that when the children of Israel dwell safely in their own land, a great confederation of nations will come out of the north parts to crush Israel" (Kesner, p. 410).
d. Ezekiel 38:16 states that "...it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes." This implies that it will take place in the end times.
2. Dr. Baldwin puts the Battle of Gog and Magog more or less in the middle of the Great Tribulation week of Seven Years and before the battle of Armageddon..
3. Dr. Kesner on page 418 of his book, "The Prophecy of Ezekiel" writes, "This is called the battle of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel and Armageddon in Revelation" (Kesner, p. 418).
4. Dr. Cross agrees with Dr. Kesner according to his book entitled "O Israel." On pages 245-253 he concludes that Battle of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel and the Battle of Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation are the same. This is confirmed by his book (lectures) entitled "Israel in Prophecy" pages 66-93.
5. Another view is presented by the late Dr. Burel G. Burnes, Missionary Baptist Preacher of California. He states in his booklet entitled Russia and the United Nations in Last Day Prophecy page 10 that the Battle of Gog and Magog "...must not be confused with the Battle of Armageddon" which he places as "...when Jesus comes at the close of the Tribulation." Dr. Burnes also seems to equate the two battles of Joel chapters 2 and three as the Battle of Gog and Magog and the Battle of Armageddon respectively; see pages 7, 8.
6. One thing for sure the Battle of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38 and 39 should not be confused with "the attemtped battle when Satan is loosed from his prison for a little season" (Israel in Prophecy , I. K. Cross, page 66).
Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV) "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
a. This attempted battle ends almost before it begins by God out of heaven.
b. God brings upon them fire down from heaven.
c. Then He cast the devil that deceived them into the lake of fire and brimstone where he "...shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
d. Note also that lake of fire is where the beast and the false prophet have been for a 1000 years after their defeat in the battle of Armageddon. Revelation 19:20 (KJV) "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
e. After the devil is cast into hell then comes the Great White Throne Judgment of the lost of all ages, Revelation 20:11-15.
6. Another note is that these chapters in Ezekiel should be studied along with Zechariah 12:1-4; 14:1-9; Daniel 11; Matthew 24:14-30; Revelation 14:14-20; 19:17-21 as well as Joel chapters 2 and 3.
7. One problem with determining the timing is that Israel will be seven month burying the bodies of the slain of the enemy according to Ezekiel 39:12. Another thing is that they will not need wood to fuel their fires because it will take seven years to burn all the wood from the enemies' weapons and equipment according to Ezekiel 39:9,10.

CONCLUSION:
A. Dr. O. R. Baldwin gave his class this schedule for the events of chapters 38 and 39 as follows:
1) Israel today; 2) Gog and Magog of the north to attack Israel; 3) they are repelled by God; 4} Other nations shall come against them and this will be the beginning of the Battle of Armageddon.
B. Gog and Magog and the northern forces will make an attack upon Israel and this will be the key to the final days of the Great Tribulation.
C. Hence Israel will be attacked and be weaken by Gog and Magog; then they are repelled by God and then the other nations will come unto them and this will be the battle of Armageddon (Baldwin, O. R., Class notes on the Prophecy of Ezekiel: dated 11/13/1984). (Note by jll: the first battle will be in the middle of the week and Armageddon will be at the end of the week.)

end of lesson taught in May, 2008.

Having known these brethren that I have quoted and having had the privilege of hearing each of them teach or preach except for Bro. Burnes I know that they put a great deal of study into their books etc. I plan to soon reread the book by the late Bro. J. C. James.

Again, I would appreciate further comments!!!!!

jll2
Gillette, WY
***Preaching Jesus Christ and Him Crucified: ***The only ONE who can forgive our sins: ***The only Way of Eternal Salvation; ***The One and Only Saviour.